EP08. Epigenetics, Shame, and Facing Old Dragons

Jean Marie: [00:00:00] What you see is in every society you find the same myth and those myths are really, you know, are telling a story by themselves.

So the one I was mentioning was Tantalus, which is this character who's being punished by the god, that he will never get what he wants. So if he sees a beautiful tree with apple as he raises his hand to take a fruit. The wind will blow the branch away. As he sees a beautiful stream he wants to drink from, he kneels, and then the water has evaporated.

And sometimes in our life, we've got this feeling that whenever we're about to reach our [00:01:00] goal, it vanishes, and we need to understand why. And when we understand, we heal it.

Omar Shaker: Jean Marie, how are you? I'm good. How are you feeling today? Good, thank you. It's so good to have you here. I'm very excited for the subject matters that we're going to be going in.

We're going to be talking a little bit about your breadth of experience in understanding humans at large, I feel. And it I find it fitting that we're going to talk about things like epigenetics and Parents and paths since we're here on the island where you came when you were my age 33 years old and you started looking for, you know, where your family is originally from and that's kind of the reason why we're all here.

And now I don't mean to date you, but I want everyone to understand how much of a life experience you have. So how old are you now? I'm 57. Sorry, we start with the tough questions always. You've had a lot of experience in, having [00:02:00] some big responsibilities with the United Nations. You've lived in so many different places.

You, I think, understand the other human experience in such an interesting way. And now you practice Etiomedicine Is that correct?

Jean Marie: That's correct.

Omar Shaker: So I really want to get into that and have the audience. You know, understand more about it and more about your work. But first, we always ask our guests to share a little bit of a story.

And I thought it would be interesting for you to share maybe something along your life path before you realized that is your calling, your actual calling. You had to do some other things that maybe were not completely your own motivation. Right. So I'd like to share with us your, your story to have the audience understand a little bit of where you come from.

Jean Marie: Yeah. Yeah. So, so of course, you know, I did not wake up one morning when I was 20 and decided I would be doing Etiomedicine . Truth be told, when I was 20, I did not know exactly what I wanted to do, but it [00:03:00] seemed people around me knew what I was supposed to do. And then quickly I realized that my parents would not let me Get out of the house or out of their supervision as long as I won't have a diploma and then they would have a feeling that part of their contract was done.

I could do whatever I wanted. So I've been basically picking the thing that was the most general, the easiest. I went to business school. I did business school and I don't regret it because, you know, it's a diploma that really can open lots of different fields and started working and then started to be more grown up and have a better sense of what I would like to do.

So I use you know, the business undergrad And as I was working, I went back to university and studied anthropology all the way to a PhD. And in the meantime, I also realized that working in [00:04:00] private sector in Paris was not my calling. So, mm-Hmm, . I decided to go and work for the UN and I've been working for the UN, you know, not permanently, but since then, so since 1999.

So what I think is important here is to realize that there are moments where, you know, people around you, and most of the time out of, good intention, are going to be defining your future, what you're going to be. you might find yourself on a track that is not the one you would have chosen. So in my case, fine, you know, I use what I did to please my parents and to have a break, you know, to reach the next stage.

But in my work as in etiomedicine, what I meet very often are people Who may be very successful and from the outside they've got the perfect life, the perfect job, the perfect family and [00:05:00] yet they're not happy because the life they're living is not the one they would not have chosen, but the one that has been chosen for them.

Omar Shaker: Do you have any kind of did you have to confront your parents ultimately when you decided to go away from corporate pairs?

Jean Marie: No, I mean, the thing is, though, my parents also you know, they both lived in Africa before. So I was lucky I could tell them I go to some crazy places like South Sudan or Darfur and they would be like, okay, great.

Have a good time. No, for my parents, that was interesting because they were not the overbearing parents who going to tell me you're going to be a doctor, you're going to be an engineer. But they were like, you're going to have a diploma before you leave this house. Now what happened is that very often, Parents put, you know, their dream, their aspiration on children.

And so, sometime a doctor want his son or his daughter to be doctor as well. Or sometime he's a factory worker who's work [00:06:00] hard and want, you know, the next generation to enjoy a better life, and see lawyer or medicine as, you know a social jump. So, you end up having people, as I said, who are very successful as a lawyer, as a businessman, as a a doctor.

But, in fact, when those people , they can't sleep. They've got physiological perturbation. They've got chronic pain. And all that is basically their inner self, their subconscious, trying to attract the fact that the life they're living now is not satisfying to them. You know, there is a dissonance between You know, the potential and believe the life they live now.

And truth be told, it's sometimes complicated when someone realize at 20, at 40 or at 50, that. Basically the best way would be to go back to the drawing board and restart [00:07:00] something different. Some people don't. Some people agonize on wanting to do it. And lots of people suffer of those dissonance along the way.

Omar Shaker: So you mentioned to me that dissonance is one of the three things that the Etiomedicine can actually help resolve. And there are three things that you said can be kind of between us and our real purpose, our real success. So you also mentioned personal trauma and epigenetics. Can you touch on each one and give us maybe like an example?

Jean Marie: Yeah, I think that, you know, Etiomedicine, so I'm going to start here on what it is. And also for the American public know that in the US it's you know, I'm practicing on the, the Etioanalysis to prevent any confusion on the, what I'm doing. So it's a technique and it's very important to insist on that it's a technique that you [00:08:00] can, one can learn.

It's not esoterical. It's based on quantum mechanic vastly. And so what happened is a French doctor called Brinette, Dr. Brinette in the eighties. He realized the limitation of his own science and decided to branch out and to go, you know, of course, in other tradition, in philosophy, in quantum mechanics, and try to Synthesize all that and come with a technique, which aim is to help the person who's having the session become closer to what they are.

So what you try to do during the session is to bring the person. to touch on where they should be and to experience harmony. And then, you know, every time you have a session, you get.. You go, you go two steps, you go back [00:09:00] one step, but you get closer to what you are. And there, and yeah, so it's hard to explain, but maybe if I want to explain it simply and I think it's very important to insist on I'm not a healer.

This is not esoterical. What Etiomedicine tries to do is to be basically a middleman between the subconscious and the conscious. So

Omar Shaker: So essentially you're helping the person trust their inner instinct, right? Like their inner, the person becomes their own inner healer. You're just.. You're helping them get more in tune with themselves.

Jean Marie: And maybe sometimes also to, to heal , because we know how it works. If something traumatic happained to you your mental, your, your conscious is going to weave this trauma into your life story into your narrative so you can keep on living. In the process, many traumas have been pushed [00:10:00] under the carpet and never dealt with.

And those traumas that have never been dealt with are the ones who's going to create those physical pain, those metabolic problem, or emotional distress.

Omar Shaker: And that's something that come, for me, coming from the medical background that I have I saw it a lot in the practice of actual medicine that we call actual medicine, that is evidence based.

We, we give the drug and give the symptom, but we keep the, we push everything under the rug. Right? Like, and we see that in mental health treatment all the time. Mental health, as well as,

Jean Marie: Structural, you know, orthopedic. Yeah. If someone has a back pain, you know, we're going to give some medicine on the back pain.

It's gone and the person can function. But the problem hasn't been solved, you know, the, the root cause. So what we try to do in Etiomedicine , Etioanalysis is to first understand what is the original [00:11:00] cause of this pain, and then deliver the information to the person and try in perfect synchronicity that awareness happens.

And for the person who's having the session, when awareness happens, he or she manage to have the memory

without the traumatic emotion attached to it. And so I can give you, you know, example, because I think it's very important. When one talk about trauma, we imagine immediately the worst, something really dire, but throughout life, we've got traumatic experience that can seem like footnotes in our life story at the end.

So if you take a kid of five years old. And he's in a supermarket with his mother. [00:12:00] And suddenly he loses his mother. This kid, during 10 minutes, is going to experience an extremely traumatic experience. Fast forward, 30 years later, he might even talk about this story at a dinner party and laugh about it.

What he hasn't realized is, at the moment he experiences the fear of having lost his mother, and the fear of losing his mother. He might have developed an epigenetic reaction. And later on, this is a person who might in relation with partner, with friend, always have a feeling of fear of being abandoned.

So for instance, in this case, if I've got a session with this person, what I'm going to be able to see is that, was a fear related to his mother when he was five. And then it's [00:13:00] up to him to identify the memory. And as he identified, he realized that the trauma is not useful anymore, and the epigenetic answer is not useful anymore, and you get

Omar Shaker: rid of that.

And so maybe it's it's helpful to define epigenetics a little more, it's it's, it's, there are the reactions that maybe, like, you know, affect our, our DNA in a way, but it's, epi, it comes from Latin, like, beside. Right. So it's not quite the, the genes that we get from our parents, but they're things that we acquire.

And what you're saying is that it it shows up in us. So it's almost like our DNA, but it's related to our trauma. So the trauma and the epigenetics affect one another, right? And so we keep experiencing the trauma over and over again in different contexts. Did I get that right? Absolutely. You know, so very

Jean Marie: often when we're going to work on a trauma, It's because the person is in an acute phase of, you know, experiencing it, but what's [00:14:00] important is to find the first iteration.

Okay, so I'm going to pause here and just, you know, give a little idea of what epigenetic is. It's a very simplified explanation, so, you know, don't see it as the ultimate medical explanation. All of us are born with a DNA, and for the longest time, people, scientists thought that DNA was what you are. And then, they realize that twins, identical twins, when they reach 40, 50, don't have the same DNA anymore.

Because And unlike what we were thinking, DNA is not the software, it's the hardware. And throughout your life, you're going to have an epigenetic reaction that's going to modulate the way your DNA is expressed. So for instance, if you find yourself in a famine, the midst of a famine. What's going to [00:15:00] happen is some protein chain going to go on your DNA and going to suppress the genes that use a lot of energy and exacerbate the ones that are saving energy.

Great. Thanks to that, I'm going to survive to the scarcity of food. Now, the problem is I'm going to pass on this epigenetic reaction to my offspring and they may find themselves in a world of plenty. And suddenly what was useful to me to survive is going to make that whenever they're going to eat, they're going to put on weight and they're going to have a permanent struggle and they will not even understand why they are putting on weight because they can't even identify it in there.

own trauma. So what I see also, what's interesting is when I work with people in Europe or, you know, other more traditional society where people are less [00:16:00] mobile, there is an understanding of where your parents were coming from, where your grandparents were coming from. What is the society? What is the culture?

What's the religion? So you get a sense of. Where you come from, you also have epigenetic that is in phase with the society you live in. But, conversely, what I saw in the U. N., lots of people who have a very vague recollection of where the grandparents came from and why they came. And very often when people migrate, it's not out of pleasure, it's out of obligation.

So I worked a lot, I mean, very often I work in the U. S. with people whose trauma were coming from having vague grandparents. Sometime from their ancestor, sometime from the culture they came from. [00:17:00] Let me give you an example. Someone who's coming with a Alawite background. So Alawite was, you know, a sub population of Syria and Lebanon that were mainly servants.

And Somehow, they had internalized their role in the society. And now you find people who went to top school in the U. S. with Alawite background and are oscillating between You know, their new found powers as, you know a highly-educated person and then having, you know, an injunction to serve and that created dissonance and helping them to realize that this compulsive desire to serve people and to put people's interest before theirs that seem at the same time to create a dissonance is not coming from them.

It's coming from their ancestry. Position of woman, you [00:18:00] know a very free woman brought up in the U. S. Having somehow, sometime, injunction to be a bit more submissive to men, create a dissonance, and when she realize, oh, this is an information coming from all the line of woman coming from very patriarchal society, then when awareness has come, they can get free of it. So this is what we do. We're not healers. We're really middlemen. We just facilitate the communication between the subconscious To the conscious and we try to do it in synchronicity so that the person can understand it in relation to something they're experiencing at that moment and that this kind of epiphany having to break free, keeping in mind that the closer you are to what you were born for, the [00:19:00] more harmonious you'll be.

Omar Shaker: Okay, so if we can just stop here for a second to summarize this if I'm understanding correctly, the, at some point a trauma might happen to me, like for example, famine that you mentioned, and then it affects my epigenetics, which I then pass on to my children. And over generations that causes the dissonance, right?

Is that the relationship between the three? Or do they happen , are they more interchangeable?

Jean Marie: So the thing is, you know, what, what can create dissonance also here? So simplifying, I would say three main sources of dissonance. Okay. I observe, In people I work with, the first one is what we're talking about, is being not you, but being someone that people have chosen you will be, okay?

And I think it's very important, the [00:20:00] closer you will be, you can be very successful and yet miserable. And the closer you will be to what was your innate potential, the better you will feel. The second thing is trauma. And as I explained, trauma doesn't have to be something extreme, that little sequences during your life.

Where you have been scared, you've been humiliated or you felt humiliated, and those stay with you. Mm-Hmm. , even though you may remember, you may remember the event, but not being able to connect any longer to the trauma. And then the third one is, you know, trauma that are coming from previous generation through epigenetic, either through your direct.

You know, parents and grandparents or your line of ancestry or sometime the subculture you're coming from.

Okay.

Omar Shaker: That's really interesting. And so [00:21:00] before we get into like the mechanics of it and how it happens. One of the one of the big themes in the book and something that I've been fascinated with is the concept of shame in general.

And you seem to me to be one of my friends who are very shameless. Like you're always speaking your mind. You aren't afraid of us shaming you about what your opinion is. Right. And maybe that's a French thing too, but you seem to like have created some kind of peace with it over time. So I'm curious to know, like, You know, how did you digest that at an early age?

Is there something that you've done to kind of overcome the stream? And is there, you know, does it factor into this trifecta of dissonance and trauma with your clients? Like how do you see it come up?

Jean Marie: I think you're right. I talk about fear. I talk about, you know, humiliation. Shame is also one of them.

You know, if someone is shamed for an opinion, a behavior, it's clearly this person is going to at least superficially, [00:22:00] superficially change to conform with, you know, what the society expects. But that creates another dissonance. So I think also it's very important to, for people to, you know, Unless they did something that they consider, they consider themselves shameful, I should not have told someone.

Okay, that's different. But if you're being shamed because you're late, or because you did not perform, or because you did not conform, this is like exactly the type of thing that Etioanalysis will help you break free.

Omar Shaker: Yeah. So I like to always refer to Brene Brown, who's a shame researcher, has a lot of incredible talks.

And one thing she says first when defining shame, like as different from guilt, right? Guilt is I did something wrong. Shame is I am wrong or there's something wrong about me. As in my identity but she says something that's interesting. Like the three things about shame is that everyone has it. No [00:23:00] one likes to talk about it.

And then once you start talking about it, it's gone. Which I always found really interesting. And so going into Etioanalysis or Etiomedicine and how, how you create that connection between someone's conscious mind and subconscious and how, tell us a little bit about the mechanics of the healing itself.

What is it that you do and how do you practice it? And like, kind of like the methodology behind it. So first I'm going to stop

Jean Marie: on what you just said, you know, the three points about shame and just talking about it, accepting it, basically, you know, make it irrelevant because you're not. You know, you're not vulnerable to it anymore.

And that's exactly what we work on because there is a shame you remember and you can deal with, you know, when you're ready. And there is all those shame that have been internalized, buried, suppressed by your conscience so you can live. And where we help is bringing them up and helping you in a conscious way [00:24:00] to deal with them.

So how do we do that? So the first thing is that I will never do a session. with someone who hasn't identified a problem. So if someone comes and say, well, I'm feeling great. I just came to see, I'm like, Oh, you feel great. That's perfect. Stay there. Call me whenever you have a problem. Because the person first has to acknowledge that there is a problem.

And the problem being what we, what I like to work with is something , talk to me about something that prevents you to fully live your life. So, as I said, it can be a chronic pain, because if you have chronic pain, you don't enjoy life. It can be metabolical or physiological problem, digestion, sleep.

It can be emotional. Oh my God, I get stressed. Okay. And when people start to say, [00:25:00] it's because of my mother. I'm like, stop. The only thing I'm interested is the intention. And while you're here, you have this physical, emotional, metabolical pain. which is your subconscious that is reminding to you that there is something you need to deal with.

There is a very good book by Sando, Dr. Sando, where ... he is a surgeon. And he talked about that. He realized that most of the chronic pain have no physiological explanation and he reached the conclusion that there might be the body reminding the person that there is something that needs to be dealt with.

So he recognized that he didn't have all the tools to find the root cause. So for me when, you know, the intention has been clearly posed, then [00:26:00] I'm going to take the pulse and I'm going to establish a, A second communication. Now in verbal communication, through the pulse, I'm going to create a communication with the inner self.

How

it's going to work? I'm going to be able to formulate questions and I'm going to get the answer through the spasm, vascular spasm, that's going to be created by the body of the person I'm working with. So, of course, I'm, if I was only using the pulse, I would have only binary answer. Yes, no. It would be very difficult, you know, to identify what the problem.

So we've got chart that's going to, you know, work on emotional, structural, trying to cover everything. So through these charts, I'm going to get information. And [00:27:00] then, when I've got enough information, I'm going to be able to ask the person, So, what happened when you were 12 that explain why you got a fear for psychological violence today?

And I can monitor in the pulse if a person identifies the reason or not, but then it's absolutely incredible that can be, Oh yeah, at 12 I arrived in a new school and I've been bullied for one year. And then the emotion come and then, you know, the cry come. And then when things are quiet, we just wait for the next information to come.

And the goal is that by the end of the session, whatever the body could not deal with, [00:28:00] And express it through, you know, the pain has been released and this person is enjoying for the time being an alignment between what they are and what they were meant to be. Now, but bad news is that, you know, we've got more than one thing to deal with.

So most probably in six months, in a year, you know, the pain, the emotion will come back just because there is another Things that is ready to be dealt with. So, but what you realize is that every time that you work on one subject, the person gets closer to what they are. And so every session will deal with a specific topic, but at the same time, we aim in the same direction.

Omar Shaker: So, you know, I'd like to reflect back some of my experience [00:29:00] in sitting in a session with you, because. You know, I go with with a lot of like, with a hypercritical mindset. Sometimes it's something I inherited in my medical training to to not believe things right then what was fascinating is the is the intuition and it's not, it's nothing like anything I experienced before where.

My, my feet would start tingling, for instance, and you're like, is your feet tingling? And I'm like, shit.

Yeah.

How'd you know that? And so in medicine, we learn how to measure the body, but not really talk to the body. And it seemed to me that you're doing this on a very fundamental level. I almost started feeling like you might be hearing my thoughts too.

And it's I think an important distinction is that it's not really like psychoanalysis, right? It's not like we're not going in like these cycles where psychoanalysis you can we can keep talking forever for years, but You really identified Something that was very true for me and something that enabled me to Even though I went in telling you [00:30:00] problems about work, you started steering us towards more relational problems and which was very alive for me in that moment, even though I didn't tell you.

So it's really interesting to make the distinction between that it analysis is not exactly psychoanalysis, right? Like you go, you get deeper into the core problem. And can you explain a little bit more about like how you do that? So the thing is, you know, it's, It's, it's

Jean Marie: there is a conscious and there is a subconscious.

And when you do psychoanalysis, I mean, like the words say, the etymology, you analyzing the psyche, you analyzing the mental, you analyzing the very organ that is organizing your narrative on suppressing what doesn't really work with your life story. That's why it's going to be long, painful, and the practitioner will have to really wait for the word, the, the, the story that seem to be a bit off [00:31:00] track and say, Oh, this is where the subconscious managed to express itself.

When for me, I directly bypass the, the, the model. So now we're talking, it's model to model, conscious to conscious. So when I take the pulse, it's maybe a bit esoterical and hard to believe, but we become a new one. And it's why not only I feel your emotion, I feel your physical sensation, but I can also ask question to your inner self.

And Where, with psychoanalysis, is this, you leave space for the fight between conscious and subconscious. One trying to escape and the other one trying to suppress, I go straight to your subconscious. And the subconscious basically is using me. To bring to your conscious the information. And for instance, in the [00:32:00] story I was telling of a kid losing his mother, subconscious being like, Hey, you conscious realize that today this story is not traumatic.

No, no one going to abandon you because you lost your mother at that time. So it's a very healthy way. It's almost as a subconscious. And so what's very important, there is a technique, you know, to achieve that. But. They're not in synchrony, which is you put information, maybe that are not ready to come out when here, what's important, I can't deliver to your conscious more than your unconscious consider the conscious is ready to dealt with.

So I'm just an instrument. I'm not a healer.

Omar Shaker: Now, is there a way for people to practice that on a, on a daily basis? Is there a way that, like, I'm assuming you don't, you don't get these sessions yourself, maybe, maybe from people that taught you, [00:33:00] but you know, how do you, how do you create that channel between conscious and subconscious and, and, and practice like that with yourself, even after the session,

Jean Marie: you know, on me on, on the person I'm working with.

Omar Shaker: No, I mean the, how, how can we do that on ourselves? So you can't. We can't. You can't. Because the,

Jean Marie: the, the way it's, here's the, the, the tension that, you know, is really explained by Jung and Freud between the conscious and the subconscious, you know. It's, there is a duality here, and subconscious doesn't have much way to express itself through what people call Freudian slip, you know, so you say a word that you were not supposed to say.

Or pain, or emotional distress, or metabolical disorder. Subconscious has no way to communicate with the world. And so it's where we come as practitioner of Etioanalysis , [00:34:00] becoming like a messenger, a middleman between your conscious and your subconscious. So what's amazing when I connect with you, I withdraw.

And it's why, yeah. I'm not there anymore. I feel what you feel. I experience what you experience. And sometimes I realize it's slightly earlier than you do. So it's when I say, your feet are tingling. You said no. Oh, yes. So anyway, I'm here really because normally subconscious has never an opportunity to bring thing up.

Only through pain. Emotional distress, metabolic disorder. That's why I want to know which one is bothering at that moment, because then the unconscious is going to help me, give me the information that needs to be understood by your conscious to be free of it. [00:35:00] I know it's a bit difficult to explain, and especially in such a short time. And I think it's very interesting because when asked Dr. Brinette who created it, you know, concluded the best way to understand HU analysis is to try it once.

Omar Shaker: Yeah, so I'm sure a lot of people listening might want to experience that. And so you are based in San Francisco, right? That's where you're mostly available to do the session. Absolutely. I'm also,

Jean Marie: You know, work. You know, wherever I am, but my practice is based in San Francisco and you know, also I have a website that try to describe as closely as possible what is it you analysis.

And I think that, you know, all listener who are interested can contact me and, you know, we can talk about, you know, how they can get [00:36:00] some help through through this technique.

Omar Shaker: And what's the best way to contact you?

Jean Marie: So you can contact me through the website and also my email address, which is jmstratigos@ etuanalysis. com

Omar Shaker: Okay. We'll be sure to include the email and the website.

Jean Marie: Yeah. And that said, you know, the, the, the, we can intellectualize and we try to explain, but I think that, you know, it's only when trying that one can fully understand, you know, what this technique provides.

Omar Shaker: Yeah. I think it's certainly a powerful experience and we're going to include your, your website so that people.

can reach out to you. And I have one last question. It's it's an interesting one based on a conversation we had also a few days ago about So, you know, we were talking about Carl Jung and this process of, you know, primitive man and the but he also talked about the collective unconscious.

Absolutely. Right. And how we have inherited a lot of [00:37:00] ideas that are inside of us. That may come up also as a lot of things, but I'm wondering. You know, this, this exploration of psyche, this exploration of selves, this exploration of trauma. And when we release it on an individual level through Etioanalysis or any other kind of healing or therapy, you're not the healer, but you know, you're, you're any kind of medium that helps us.

Do you think we affect the collective unconscious? Like, does it go back into, to our parents? Like, can I, can I heal my parents through the work that I do on myself?

Jean Marie: Oh, absolutely. The thing is, you know, you do even more. So the way, you know, global collective subconscious exists, you know, in the view of Jung is that, We all upload our experience and whenever we need idea, we download, download from them.

Now what's important to also understand is that there are good or perverted idea in the global, you know, unconscious and [00:38:00] sometime another reason of your dissonance is because of the injunction of a society make you do things you don't want. So we see, for instance, in developed Western society, this craving for consumption, for appearance.

So, all of us are, you know, affected by this aspect of a global unconscious, and even someone who would love to live a simple life is compelled to do so to behave a way that is not the way they would like. So, yeah, it's, it's something also that we help people to realize. But definitely global unconscious is something that we all connected to.

And whenever you understand something, whenever you have a new experience, whenever you, you improve, this is uploaded. [00:39:00] In kind of a cloud for everyone to go and benefit from, from your experience.

Omar Shaker: That's fascinating. So, so healing is really it's, it's a, it's a work towards humanity. It's not just a selfish thing, right?

Jean Marie: Healing yourself is healing humanity.

Omar Shaker: Martin Luther King said that we're, there's an upward trajectory for consciousness and that we're kind of getting there. You know, it's not straightforward, it's not a straight line, but we're, we're, it's, it's getting higher and higher. Do you, do you agree with him?

Jean Marie: I think it's part of our role in this life is to basically transmute chaos into love.

And I think that generation after generation, yeah, there is an accumulative process that makes that, you know, humanity is [00:40:00] improving, even though it's not necessarily apparent in those days. But yeah, no, I think that, but conversely, every positive, you know, improvement will be shared, but also every negative setback will be shared.

So it's a permanent tension. Well, I think it's something that's very important. To recall and that lots of thinkers, you know, have terrorized on, is there is no individual epiphany. And the salvation is either the entire humanity will become enlightened or we will fail. So I think it's important we do it in individual level, but all of us as eventually to do it if we.

want to become as humanity something better.

Omar Shaker: Jean Marie, it was fascinating talking to you as always. Thanks for sharing all of this. And I hope everyone got something from [00:41:00] this, thinking about the collective subconscious or unconscious. And, you know, may we, may we download the things that we need and upload even better software into the, into the world.

Thank you so much for being here, man.

Jean Marie: Thanks a lot, Omar. It was really good talking to you. And good luck with your endeavour about, you know, the podcast, the book, and all your other projects.

Thanks for joining us this week on this very important conversation here on the Gumpcast. If you have a personal connection to epigenetics or etioanalysis, we'd love to hear from you. Tell us your story in the comments section, because this healing work is both individual and collective. And when we heal individually, we heal each other in the process.

This week, we are showcasing the talents of our community. And this episode features the comedy of one of the Gumcast's dearest friends and supporters, Shereen Wafey. Do you have a talent that you'd like showcased on our show? We're [00:42:00] calling all musicians, writers, poets, comedians, and everything in between.

Send us a shout and we can let you know how your work could be featured here on the Gumpcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.