EP10. Healing through connection: A Father and Son's Journey.

Paul Kist: [00:00:00] All right, everyone, and welcome to episode 10 of the Gumpcast. This is Paul Kist, filling in for Omar Shaker this week. We just want to thank you for joining us thus far as we're coming very near to the end of our very first season. This episode is a special one. You see, Chapter 10 is all about starting new journeys, including Muscat and his family immigrating to the U.

S. from Kenya. We thought it would be great to bring someone on who had an immigration story of his own, so I invited my dad to be on the show. As the episode went on, we went from the topic of immigration, and then transitioned to the topic of fathers and sons. You'll hear a conversation between a guy and his dad who are very close, but what isn't really apparent in the interview is the fact that It wasn't always this way.

In fact, for most of my adult life, while, yes, the love was strong and immovable, we were quite far from each other, and what filled the space between us was a great distance, and a lot of silence. Once I left the house at 18, I moved to New York City, and I never really looked back. I [00:01:00] wanted freedom. Freedom from high expectations.

To me, it was a freedom from having to fit a certain mold that had nothing to do with my own interests or ideals. You see, I didn't see my dad's strictness as his expression of love and fatherhood that I now come to understand. I saw it as a barrier and a very high bar that I wasn't even interested in trying to reach.

And so a distance grew between us, one that lasted almost 16 years. During those years, he was changing. I never gave him the chance for me to know that this was happening. And this interview confirmed for me what I began to suspect in recent years. You'll hear his reflections about this transition from the father role of his home culture, to this realization that letting go and allowing me to be myself was the only way to do this right.

and have that right relationship between us. You'll hear us mention a trip to Spain as the turning point of our relationship, and it really was. You see, out of nowhere, he invited me to go on this international trip, and it totally caught me off guard. Yet, something inside just urged me to just go, and just do it.

I had read The Alchemist, and [00:02:00] Southern Spain was calling my name, so, you know, I told him, alright, if you want to do this, we're doing this my way. We're backpacking through Andalusia, no resorts, no beaches, just you and I on trains, planes, and automobiles, man. And to my surprise, he said yes. You'll hear a conversation between a father and son who are very close, but the journey to get there was further than I could have ever imagined.

Hearing his words showed me that he had to travel as far as I did in order to meet his son where he was at. But despite all the troubles, I've always admired and respected this man for his story, his triumphs, his abilities, his deep knowledge of Basically everything. He's such a respect for literature, film, and music.

But this interview showed me so much more of this man's gumption. You see, it's one thing for someone to traverse the gap between generations and adopt a new perspective. I mean, we all know how hard that is. Now, here's a man who worked so hard to close that generational gap and to see things differently.

But it wasn't just generational, but also culture. To go from how things were from his homeland to where he is [00:03:00] now. It's really a remarkable thing. It shows us that we ourselves can change. We are not static. There's always room to grow, always room to discover new parts of ourselves, and incorporate new ones too.

I mention all this to tell the audience that sometimes even the most seemingly impossible relationships can be mended. They can become stronger than ever. It's something that I never really believed until I experienced it for the first time. Once the clouds lifted, I realized that so many of the things I cherish about myself, I got it from him.

And so without further ado, here we go with episode 10 of The Gumcast.

George Kist: It's very hard for anybody to leave a country that they grew up in. One day you wake up, you get ready, you're going to take the plane and [00:04:00] fly away. That's not easy.

Paul Kist: Another word for gumption is, uh, chutzpah. Chutzpah. How would you describe chutzpah?

George Kist: Chutzpah is like having the strong heart to go and do something, heart, heartedly, without any hesitation. As long as you believe in it, go for it.

Hello, George hello. Hello Paul. How are you? I'm good. How's it going? Welcome to the Gump Cast. Oh, thank you very much. I'm looking forward for this. I hope I can, can contribute whatever comes out of it. I hope I'm helpful and bringing something that's of value.

Paul Kist: I don't think that will be a problem for you.

See, today we have this very special guest with us. This is George Kist and for those who don't know, George Kist is my father. [00:05:00] George is a psychiatric pharmacist, recently retired and congratulations. Thank you. You, you've been working in the field of psychiatric pharmacy for how many years? All right.

Almost 30 years. As you know, here on the gum cast, we always ask our guests in the beginning to tell the story. And so we're going to get to the story in a moment, but first I want to share a little bit why we decided to have my father to join us on the show today. In the book, In Search of Gumption, uh, the main character Muscat has a very, very close and very interesting relationship with his father.

And the topic of fathers and sons is actually a big part of the book, uh, that the show is, is, uh, is about. Which is good, which is good. And as we know that the relationship between fathers and sons can be very complex sometimes. Sure. I wanted to have you on the show with me so we can have a conversation together.

I'm honored to be able to introduce my dad to the GumpCast audience, because I know that not only will [00:06:00] he have valuable things to share, I always enjoy conversations with him because they always give me a lot to think about. And is often challenging to me sometimes. One of the reasons why I am who I am today, in terms of how I think about things and how I see the world.

So, um, it's an honor for me, Dad, to have you with us. And

George Kist: also it's an honor for me to be with you

Paul Kist: in any setting at any time. Thanks, Dad. And speaking of settings, the current setting is we are sitting here in our family room. We're drinking some, I don't know what you call this. Some sugary,

George Kist: sugary. Bubbly drink is cool.

They call it like a, they call it like a wine product.

Paul Kist: It's a wine product. It's called Secco. It's not even Prosecco. It's like the discount cousin of Prosecco is just called Secco.

George Kist: Yeah. And we got that from my favorite, uh, food place to shop Trader Joe's.

Paul Kist: Trader Joe's is not a sponsor. We're not getting any money for [00:07:00] mentioning the name Trader Joe's.

It is actually his favorite place to go shopping. But how would you rate this wine from a scale from one to ten? Well, I would say it's a five. It's a five. You're being very generous. I give this a three, but still it's doing the job. Sure. It's sweet. It's light. It's refreshing. Cause we've had a very hot few days.

Actually,

George Kist: like a drier

Paul Kist: kind of wine, less sugary. We'll have to make sure to get that for next time. As in the tradition with all of our guests on the Gumpcast, we like to ask our guests to tell us a story. And so the story I wanted to know if you could share with us is the story of your immigration from your homeland, which is Egypt, to the United States, which was in the 1960s.

So maybe you can share a little bit about this, this immigration story of yours with the audience.

George Kist: The idea of immigrating to this country wasn't really in my calculation, wasn't planned for, wasn't looking for, at least during my [00:08:00] college years. Uh, my plan was get my degree. and then look to work in a hospital for a few years to go and to open my own drug store.

Yeah. The political environment in Egypt changed fast and strong when they went through wars in 1967. That came exactly at the same time with the United States. It changed. their immigration laws to accept people from third world countries, like, you know, usually most of the immigrants that came to the U.

S. was European countries, I guess, as a result of the civil rights laws and changes and stuff like that. Egyptian environment was not, uh, became less favorable. At that time, the United States was going, uh, was in the middle of the, in the Vietnam War. Right. And, uh, so for some reason they [00:09:00] needed medical people.

Paul Kist: Yeah. So I understand there was, there was an opportunity. Yeah. And the door was open for someone like you. However, just because there was an opportunity doesn't mean that someone has to take it. So why was it important for you to take this opportunity to leave everything that you knew to go to this place, uh, across the ocean?

George Kist: It was not just economic career and future, but also I had in mind also to come over here for education. to go for higher education. Okay. I was planning like when, when I come over here and work and study, I get a higher degree, I can go back to Egypt again. Actually, immigration was a very difficult thing to do.

So the only thing you say, Oh, you will make it easy on yourself by, you know, by believe actually believing that, you know, you go over there and you take and if things don't work. You can always come back. [00:10:00] It's very hard for anybody to leave a country that you grew up in. One day you wake up, you get ready.

You're going to take the plane and fly away. That's not easy. And actually the day I was, was about to do this, I, uh, I, I was hesitant. To the extent that in a hurry, I said, let me spend another week in Egypt,

in

George Kist: Alexandria. I, I, I canceled my flight for one week to enjoy Egypt for one more week. And what did you do in

Paul Kist: those seven days?

George Kist: I was very busy working from the day I graduate to the day I left, I was continuously working. And so I took that week as a, as a, like a vacation week and just relaxation. And the people who came to wish me well, they have to come back again and wish me well again.

Paul Kist: So you [00:11:00] got two going away parties,

George Kist: doesn't

Paul Kist: sound like such a bad deal.

George Kist: Yep. That's what happened. But, but actually this came about my hesitation. On, on leaving. So it's not easy for somebody to leave and to leave and to come to

Paul Kist: unknown. So you came to, it was to New York, right? Yeah, I came to New York. You came to New York without a job lined up. It was just on Yeah, exactly.

You just arrived here. Yeah, exactly. And thought you will figure it out. Sure.

George Kist: And it became a per, you become, you become a permanent resident from the first day, and within five years you're gonna become a a, a citizen. And what year was this? This was

Paul Kist: 1960, end of 1969. 1969 in the United States. If anyone in our audience has any concept of what the United States was like during this time, we were in the middle of what?

George Kist: First of all, in the last year I was following the events while I'm in Egypt, reading about [00:12:00] what's happening in the United States. The United States had, it was like a turmoil. Turmoil from all kinds, was in the middle of Vietnam War. Kids were burning their draft cards, going to Canada, going to Israel, to avoid the draft.

President Kennedy was shot. Martin Luther King was shot. Robert Kennedy was shot, was also shot. Malcolm X was shot. So, and I happened to go into a movie about New York city and was like, uh, uh, the most famous. Violent movie was happening in the subway between a robber and people. And I said, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or what I'm going here.

Paul Kist: And yet you voluntarily got on a plane and flew by yourself to Manhattan, right? And

George Kist: actually the United States at that time didn't have a diplomatic relation with [00:13:00] Egypt because as a result of the 60 civil war, uh, Egypt broke the relationship, the diplomatic relation. And in that case, the United States Embassy was just a small room inside the Spanish Embassy.

Paul Kist: So, I just want to reflect on a couple of things. Sure. Um, the summer of 69 was Woodstock and you and I recently watched the Woodstock documentary. Right. And, of course, I don't think you knew exactly what Woodstock was. No. At the time. I'm just curious, in retrospect. If you could go back to that summer, would you join and go to the Woodstock concert?

George Kist: To me, these kids look like they didn't have a career. They were mostly college kids. I viewed myself as a professional looking for a job, getting a job nine to five. But in the [00:14:00] meantime, I really followed the music of that time until today. And I'm still playing the songs, Simon and Garfunkel and Peter, Paul and Mary, Bob Dylan, uh, you know, all this, you know, I actually, Bob Dylan just got a Nobel prize, I think, a few years back.

For his lyrics.

George Kist: Nobel Prize in literature for his lyrics because they believe that some of the lyrics of the songs, it made a big impact on the American life.

Paul Kist: You are actually one of my first musical influences. Some of my earliest memories of listening to music. Was listening to Simon and Garfunkel with you in the office.

Cecilia was maybe one of the first songs I had memorized even before twinkle, twinkle, little star. I think I knew Cecilia first. It's clear that there was a big influence on you in terms of the culture. You found home here somehow, because [00:15:00] it wasn't that you went back to Egypt or anything. So I'm just curious.

Maybe you could tell the audience how you were able to create a life that is yours in a very strange and different place that you had no relation to before coming.

George Kist: This, this is what sometimes immigrants do. They leave their country and they come over here, but they still live within their country by living in, in, in their communities.

Still speaking the Arabic language, eating Egyptian food. But you're

Paul Kist: saying you didn't take that approach. But I didn't

George Kist: take that approach. At that time there was not so many Egyptians. And I didn't take that approach. I rented a room in an American house, American family. After dinner, we'll sit in the living room and watch the news, uh, discuss what's going on.

I was absorbing and watching and seeing. [00:16:00] So I was living, I was living the American life. as early as possible, you know, so it wasn't a shock for me and I enjoy the freedom.

Paul Kist: I think we have a very appropriate guest for this show because as we know our main character, Muscat, has a lot of chutzpah, a lot of gumption and just hearing from your story that I hear the story of a man with a lot of, To take the risk, to leave everything, to start a new life in a new place in one of the craziest times in America, by the way.

You know, I want to like shift gears a little bit because I think one important topic in the book is about fathers and sons. I don't have any kids of my own, but many of my peers are having children, especially those who are having sons. And I know how much they dream of having close relation with their [00:17:00] sons.

They have dreams of doing things together. Having the same interests, all these things and in the book and also in real life, we know that oftentimes sons take different paths from their fathers. It all, it's a very common story that men try to find their own way. Sure. Sometimes different than the way of their, of their dads and their ancestors and so forth.

I reflect on this because I feel like you and I have a very interesting story in terms of our own relationship.

George Kist: I was trying not to push for, uh, strongly or direct you for certain career here or there or to be this or to be that. I gave you the choice, but, uh, I gave you the choice because I don't want to have it on my conscience that I, I told you to become a pharmacist like me, for example.

And then you may not be happy doing that. So, uh, you [00:18:00] choose to go for four years education in, in New York. And instead of going like to St. John's and stuff like that. And you, and I give you the freedom to do, to, to make your own choice. You know, that's the best way to let the child grow and make their own destiny.

Paul Kist: And in some respects, I did do that. I did, I did study computers at NYU at the same time, I wanted to have a responsible career because I wanted to, you know, continue the story that you started, you know, you, you came a long way and you did this. And I think a part of me always wondered, well, what if I.

just studied music and did that whole thing, you know, and that was always like a, like a conflict that I had, you know, and you, you, and you know, this, cause you've spoken about this. Sure. You know, even in my own mind, just like, you know, in, in the book, there was like a difference between, uh, the professor's [00:19:00] plan and Muscat's plan for, from my vantage point, I always felt that maybe I was a difficult child to raise for you.

I, I felt that, that tension, you know, I think that all fathers and sons have when it comes to finding identity and stuff. I mean, would you say that you experienced the same thing or?

George Kist: Well, I would say, of course, as I told you, like the father would like to direct their kids. I, I learned that over the years they can't.

You can always advise, give advice and discuss things and the child will pursue the way he see, he see things and the way he accept things and he can proceed with his own ability, no push, no, no pressure, none of that, to get where the child want to be. You know, the main thing to go through life. Also is to, to be happy and to be at [00:20:00] ease with yourself and to try to accomplish what you can and whatever God take you to without any pressure, you know, and don't forget like if you like, I am a, I am a father, but I'm also, I was a child one day and I grew up in Egypt in an Egyptian family was a relation between a father and son or, uh, you know, Parents and Children is different than now.

Even in this country, father used to yell at their kids and slap their kids once in a while, but not nowadays. And so I have to recondition myself to give you the freedom and to accept As much, you know, I, I mean, I was encouraging you in every way, like when you were practicing music, going for a competition at the set level, at the county level, in the school.

Paul Kist: And I, and I, and I remember all those times. Yeah. And, [00:21:00] um.

George Kist: And that was to you was something new. Same thing was new to us also. So we went through the training and the. The enjoyment of the events like you.

Paul Kist: Yeah. I mean, honestly, cause I, I never understood why exactly. Cause I remember with every concert I used to take, yes.

With every concert, I'm playing the tuba. You're there with the camcorder recording. And I'll be honest, I didn't a understand if you really enjoyed the music that we were playing and what, what made you spend all that time just standing there with a video camera,

George Kist: I mean, these things of memory and history And something that he can go back and look on, uh, back to it and look at it.

Paul Kist: You know, when I think about my relationship with you today, I see you as one of my best friends. Thank you, Paul. Same here.

George Kist: Now at my, uh, at this age and time, you see that I'm not giving you advice anymore. [00:22:00] I'm actually getting advice from you, you know? I hope I'm not

Paul Kist: steering you

George Kist: wrong. No, no, you're not steering me wrong because I come to you with a lot of questions.

And I wait for you when you come to ask you all this question. How about to do this, this, this, and that, you know, the dynamic of relationship or life changes by time, by age, by time.

Paul Kist: From my vantage point, I've been reflecting on, on our closeness and I feel very grateful for it. Thank you. Same here, Paul. And I look and I think, well, what, like, was it always this way? When did it start? Our trip to Spain was a turning point in our relationship. You feel this too?

George Kist: Yep. You did a good, you did a great job as a travel agent and a travel companion.

And, uh, [00:23:00] your, uh, knowledge of the Spanish language, because I know you studied Spanish, so I, and I enjoy the, I enjoyed you more than any of these things, but these things made it also easier and more enjoyable too. So you, you are the travel companion are great.

Paul Kist: As I've been reflecting on this trip. Um, I do have a question for both of us is why do we think that this trip was such a turning point?

For our relationship,

George Kist: because I think the dynamic of trouble is there is a certain interaction and, and, uh, in the, in the process of trouble, trouble with somebody when you travel, you, you, there is an unknown factor of things you don't know what you're going to be looking at. You're going to look at things for the first time.

There's a lot of hope that things will work the right way and to get somebody so you have the companionship of somebody close [00:24:00] to you like a father and son and also going through the process of, uh, discovering a country for the first time. So the dynamic itself. And the, and the interaction is there, you know, to work magic.

If it, it, it, uh, come positive from all points, you know, the opposite would be if things don't work the right way, you know, your expertise in troubling. Made everything right from the beginning.

Paul Kist: Well, it's a good thing I did a good job with that. Yeah, you did it before. Absolutely. That trip was actually, it was a lot of fun.

Yep.

Paul Kist: It was the first thing that you and I did together. Yep. Really. Yep. As, as adults. Sure. And, I mean, I was, I was 35 years old, 36 years old. So about, you know, 16 years, and you were double my age and yet I took this man backpacking through Southern Spain, sleeping in a different place every single night and you know, he [00:25:00] definitely held his own and we didn't get tired.

In fact, we had a lot of good food and wine along the way. But I'll tell you, I was. Confused at the invitation for the trip because we hadn't done something like this before and I think all sons actually go through this Mm hmm. I think we believe that we are somehow different. We are different. We have our own way We don't we are different from where we come from being born and raised in America By parents who came from a different place, I wasn't sure if I even wanted to belong to where we came from because I was in a whole new place.

Sons, we often find ourselves thinking that somehow we come from a whole different tree and we find our own way, our own identity. Something very different happened on that trip for me. I realized a few things. I realized number one, I can have a good time going out with my father, having some wine and, and, and tapas.

Oh, okay. Number one. It felt like I was hanging out with any [00:26:00] one of my friends.

George Kist: Good. I'm, I'm glad I gave you that impression.

Paul Kist: Like I went back in years, right? No, I think I was the one that wanted to go to sleep and you were like, no, let's go to the next place, to the next place. No,

George Kist: I mean, you, you actually, I was like, here is my hand.

Take me to wherever you want me to take me to. Oh.

Paul Kist: Yeah, number two, I saw the adventurous spirit in you. I knew in my memory that this was a man who had a great adventure of his own, immigrating to the United States. Yet the man that I knew growing up was very calm and more structured and not going to the ends of the earth for this or for that, you know, just a very regular existence.

And you know, me, as soon as I got the idea of traveling, I went to so many places. I went to South America, this and that. And so I didn't know what it would be like to travel with you. And then I come to realize. Number two, here is this [00:27:00] man who has the same adventurous spirit that I know in myself and suddenly I, I, I saw where I got it from.

George Kist: I mean, there is always a piece of adventure or, or, or, or an element of being adventurous. It can get more or less between adventurous and cautious, cautious also.

Yeah.

George Kist: And as you grow older, The issue of being cautious gets stronger than the issue of being adventurous. But as you hear the term, uh, young at heart, you know, that's the best way to do it, to go through life at any age is to, to continue to be young at heart.

You can tell somebody how old are you when the number does not mean anything Have nothing to do with how you feel. I mean, you could feel as young as you can be, you know, or even younger than when you were young. Because when you were young, you were more [00:28:00] busy looking for a job or getting exhausted by work and doing things you don't like.

Or you enjoy to a certain extent, but it's still work. As you get older and you work less or you're retired, Then you can enjoy the same, uh, you can go through the same things. I'm looking forward to have similar trips with you and you take Faiza and Nadia. And we go all of the four of us, you know, or the two of us.

Oh, we'll go the two, we'll leave them behind. We can just go the two of us. Yeah, sure. But I'm just saying you can have a mix of both.

Paul Kist: I'm just kidding, mom and mix,

George Kist: mix and match.

Paul Kist: Let me put it this way. I learned in my thirties that I found so much of you inside of me, both in the workplace, during the years when I was working hard, building the startup with my colleagues, I found so much of you in how I showed up to work [00:29:00] in the discipline in the organization and how I.

Dealt with my colleagues, how I dealt with superiors, the whole thing. I found a lot of what I witnessed in you inside of myself. It just happened, you know, it just sort of came about spontaneously. And then on that trip, the part of me that I always had connection to, which was my love of music and art of travel and of good food and wine, and just, you know, exploring the world, I had such a great companion doing it.

We are very similar. I also remember all these books that I remember books that I've read, music that I've listened to movies that I've seen, you had already seen them or read them. And, uh,

George Kist: the successful trip that we had in Spain, give me a lot of ideas about, we'll have to repeat it many more times. What

Paul Kist: do you think of Thailand?

George Kist: No problem.

Paul Kist: You heard it here folks. A

George Kist: little [00:30:00] further than what I expected. Language and food and everything else, but it's, it's okay.

America is the only country in the world where even when I know all my papers are in order, I still feel like a refugee climbing over a wall while standing in immigration line at the airport. It's like they think it's the most exclusive club in the world and everyone wants to get in. Sometimes I wonder who does their marketing?

After getting the coveted stamp and being allowed entry into adult Disneyland, I realized that the new slogan of America was the Land of the Divided. But this isn't actually new because in the late 60s, the era of George Kissed, our lovely guests, they had way bigger problems. Presidents were being shot and people were taking sides.

Now fast forward to 2021 and people are [00:31:00] taking shots and presidents are taking sides. I still haven't figured out where these sides are or why they put the hole in the donut. But I know that the donut, although seen simply as a delicious glazed American treat, it is actually our guide to greatness. Time to fill the gap with jelly and make America whole again.

Paul Kist: What advice do you have for sons out there who are Struggling in their relationship with their fathers, either distant or misunderstanding. What, what's your advice to them?

George Kist: I think that advice is not to the sons only. I think to the fathers too. I think it needs the both of them to see and appreciate each other more.

If they have a problem or a difficulty on that, they should seek [00:32:00] or they seek advice or some professional advice. It's very valuable not to waste. That relationship and, uh, uh, in terms of advice and career development of the son and also the sanity and the, uh, and the peace of the family in general, in general.

Paul Kist: So it's not every day that you'll hear me say this, or even ask this question. And as you told, as you said before, that you have, you have refrained from giving me advice, but I'm going to, you know, you, Right now, I want to ask you, do you have any advice for me? I will gladly accept.

George Kist: My advice for you is to look around, don't lose hope, be very insightful about what's around you.

Have a clear goals in, in clear goals in your, for your future [00:33:00] and career, hope everything and have dreams. And hopefully all these things get realized, you know, and when you dream, dream without any limitation, the skies is a limit. And, and if you go and you just try to follow your dreams, it will happen.

Paul Kist: Yeah. This is very good advice for a very uncertain time that the world is in. I think all we have is our dreams. That can get us to the next phase, after everything we've been through in the last year. I think this is very solid advice. I don't know, fortunately or unfortunately, I dream very big.

George Kist: Okay, good.

That's exactly what you're supposed to do.

Paul Kist: We'll have to see where that's going to take us. Did you enjoy this interview? Did you enjoy being a guest on the show? Absolutely.

George Kist: Whenever you, whenever you want me. I'm dead.

Paul Kist: All right. You heard it here. Yes. Uh, this is Dr. George Kist. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. [00:34:00] And we will see you next time on the gum cast. Have a great week and we'll talk to you soon.

George Kist: Thank you very much for you on. And Omar and everybody. All

Paul Kist: right. So, um, I guess whenever, whenever we're ready, we can start. So I think what I'm gonna do is I'm going to introduce you.

Okay.

Paul Kist: Um, I'm gonna introduce you as my dad. Okay. And then, um, and then usually we have everyone start by telling the story. So, yeah. So you're ready. Okay.

George Kist: Actually, actually the circumstances of my coming here wasn't really.

Planned for, or, uh, the Mediterranean sea. I grew up in it when it was less [00:35:00] crowded than what it is today. And, uh, professionally speak, since you

Paul Kist: would open a drug store, are you telling the story now? Yeah. We haven't started yet. So you want to start all over again? Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm just telling you the format and then, and then from there, we'll.

We'll have a more open discussion. Okay.

Okay.