Ep07 | Internal Family Systems and Wellbeing w/ Ryan Ginn & Paul Kist

Ryan: [00:00:00] It's hard, it's just hard to be me. It's hard to be, whatever... sometimes sensitive or it's hard to deal with life, right? So, I don't go to alcohol generally, I go to food, and this part of me is the provider of that, of those food experiences. And so just to maybe paint a bit full of a map, then there's also this protector.

When in relationship with my wife, that steps in and says back off. I want to. Don't take this away from me. I need this. And doesn't have much collaborative skills, because it sees it as so very, almost like, survival or something, this is non-negotiable. So as I map that all out,

if I were to share that all with my wife, she would have a lot more compassion for why I'm being so [00:01:00] inflexible.

Omar: Yo! You made it! My name is Omar Shaker, and I'm honored to welcome you to The Gumpcast, where we have deep conversations about the human spirit and what keeps us going, despite the shittiness of it all.

Our goal is to encourage you to feel seen, heard, and understood. So tune in for real and raw conversations and become part of them on findgumption.com

Hey everyone, and welcome back to a very special episode of the Gumpcast. Today we're going to be exploring a healing modality that helps us understand the fundamentals of being human. That form of psychotherapy is called internal family systems, and it's one that has had a powerfully transformative effect on my own life. And as I continue writing the story and building characters and interviewing people, I see the value of it more and more. [00:02:00] Internal family systems or IFS is a powerfully transformative evidence-based model of psychotherapy. It believes that the mind is naturally multiple as opposed to people who we label with a diagnosis of multiple personality disorder.

IFS has the perspective that we all have these multiple personalities and they actually are valuable. People with multiple personality disorders just have had these parts blown up with severe trauma at some point in their lives. Our inner parts contain valuable qualities and our core self knows how to heal, allowing us to become integrated and whole.

In IFS, all parts are welcome. IFS is a movement. It's a new and empowering paradigm for understanding and harmonizing the mind, and thereby, larger human systems. One that can help people heal and helps the world become a more compassionate place. I read that last part out of the [00:03:00] IFS Institute Website, ifs-institute.com. You can check out more information about this there. And we're lucky enough to have a guest today that has been practicing IFS for a very long time. And we're actually going to do a live demo of what it looks like in practice on my co-host Paul Kist. With that, I would love to welcome you all to episode seven of the Gumpcast.

Hey Paul, thanks for giving me back my mic in my show.

Paul: Hey man, the job of a host, I found out isn't as glorious as one would think, so I actually give you a lot of props for having done this for so many episodes. The show is all yours again, man.

Omar: I'm really excited to be back in this seat. I know how hard it can be to be sharing your personal stories, and there's no one that I could be more excited to have on the show now, and no one that I think is going to be adept in helping us explore these topics [00:04:00] that we've just hit on other than Ryan. It's really good to have you here, Ryan.

Ryan: Hey, it's good to be here with you both.

Omar: So I'm really excited about getting people to know more about your work, and a lot of the experiences that you have opened my eyes to, inspired this whole work of art.

So, it's really fitting to have you here and speak about these things, we've been exploring the male psyche. We've been exploring a lot of, the moments of shame and the moments of aggression and revenge and all these themes, that I look up to you in terms of how we explore them and the safe space that we can create to explore these things.

And so I want to get into that and your modality, but first the way we're going about this show is that we're trying to make it about vulnerability and especially vulnerability around men. We have just had an episode around revenge and Paul and I were asking a lot of questions around, when is revenge a good thing?

And when should one draw the line? and with male aggression, that [00:05:00] seems to be a common thread here. And so, we wanted to explore the topic of the shadow and that darker side of us. And I don't think there's anyone that I can easily ask to share a story about the dark side more than you.

So I know you had something, In your mind. So would you like to share a little bit of a story that talks about your dark side to get the audience to really know you?

Ryan: Yeah. I didn't really think about it as the dark side, but I guess it is, right? That's the shadow.

Yeah. The story that I was thinking about was something in my relationship, which often brings up this shadow land. It's a hard place to actually keep our shadows at bay, right? They come up. Maybe a little like context about me. I like to think of myself as compassionate and patient and kind and easy-going [00:06:00] and all of that, right?

And of course, as it plays out in my marriage, I get to see the darker side of myself that is none of those things, right? And so in general, it's a painful, humbling thing for me to witness on a near daily basis. There's a whole dimension of myself that isn't patient, that is judgmental, that isn't loving, that isn't kind, that isn't considerate.

It's a composite of multiple different interactions. And that is "Oh, I'm a big cook. I love to cook, and I like what I like." I have a bit of an ego.

Ryan: I recognize that I have around what tastes good, how things should be prepared and I... you Paul, you get me.

There's the right way things should be prepared, and the wrong way..

Ryan: Yeah, and I'm a big saute or, I like, I start, I always try and do my dishes that way. And. My wife many times has asked, can we do a little less oil? Like your food is too heavy [00:07:00] and I don't hear it.

I don't want to, I don't want to adjust and I'm obstinate and I like the food the way I like it.

I

Ryan: think

You might have been a Middle Eastern in another life.

Ryan: I do have a back, like I spent years in China and that's, it's okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why, I actually I learned cooking from my mother, my main one, but I refined, I refined it or developed it in China.

A whole nother story with a Chinese chef there. But so it's just to say, I have this. The dark side of me is I don't want to have to fucking bend my, what I want for you.

Speak from it. And that it's probably blatantly obvious, gets me into a lot of trouble.

Because my wife in that situation has a very valid, legitimate request. She actually likes food a bit lighter. She likes things steamed once in a while. I generally do not like steamed [00:08:00] vegetables. And it's to this day, it's an ongoing like challenge, right? It might sound, and it might not be what people might think about when they think about one's dark side, but this is how it shows up in very day to day, gritty interactions in order for my relationship to work.

I have to get to know and really have a conscious aware relationship with that part of me that doesn't want to give in that, that thinks that he knows how things should be done.

Yeah. And I'm really curious now, if we like slow down the moment where you're getting worked up about how, or like trying to Explain to her that no, this is how I like food and I don't want to give up.

If we look at it from the perspective of this internal family systems work and maybe it's good to even start [00:09:00] bringing into the conversation, the work that you do and maybe try to like first define it and then go back to that story and look at it.

What's going on under the hood. We see what's going on the surface now, but, give us a little bit more about the kind of work that you've been training in and working with us.

Ryan: Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Omar, for inviting a bit of a deeper dive into that and using this kind of situation as an example of doing shadow work or you could call it parts work.

Cause more and more like it's all it's the same for me. So yeah, I think a real brief sketch of what we mean by internal family systems, IFS and, or shadow work again. There's. To me, it's like one in the same, and it is a process of becoming aware of all of our parts and how they all function in order to help us feel safe or get our needs met.

And the general, the overlay around it [00:10:00] all is that no part is evil, no part should or could be gotten rid of. Thank you. And that our journey on this planet seemingly is to learn how to become intimate, to accept, to integrate all of our parts. And there's no kind of end to it. And there's no arrival at full integration.

And any notion that there is just coming from some part that wants to arrive at perfection or completion. So what does that look like? So just to bridge it into that example for me, like that looks like me, maybe with my therapist, ideally or just internally, or with my wife, like getting to know like you said, like slowing it down in that moment.

And really getting a map of what, what is happening, [00:11:00] because in every moment there's so much happening. So for me in that moment I have this part of me that works really hard. To create really nourishing food experiences. It's been doing that I got it from my mother.

It's like this. Thanks. It's a strong part of me, thinks about food a lot and plans and practices, right? And it does that to help this other part of me, like a younger part that, or definitely a younger part that feels let's see, even if I just tap into it in the moment, feels shaky in this world.

Yeah. Feels like it needs some soothing, it's hard. It's just hard to be me. It's hard to be whatever sense sometimes sensitive or [00:12:00] just it's hard to deal with the, just life. So I don't go to alcohol generally, like I go to food and this part of me. Is the provider of that, of those, food experiences.

And so just to maybe paint a bit fuller of a map, then there's also this protector, when in relationship with my wife, that's that steps in and says back off. I want to, don't take this away from me. I need this. And doesn't have much like collaborative skills because it sees it as so very almost like survival or something just like this is non negotiable.

So as I map that all out and I, if I were to share that all with my wife, she would have a lot more compassion. For why I'm being so inflexible. And I would too, I'd be like, yeah, so I get it. I can see how you want food [00:13:00] prepared in a different way. And then this is what I'm working with. There's these parts of me and we, and then maybe we together could look at Oh, it sounds like there's a deeper part of you that feels a bit undernourished.

Is there some other way? Is there some other way we could nourish that part of you besides food right now? Do you want to? Have a cuddle on the couch? Oh, that actually might be really nice and actually more effective. And then I get to, cause that wasn't an op, that, that wasn't a, just to dip in a little bit to my personal history, like that wasn't an option, that wasn't in my menu, so to speak, right?

As a kid. Like when I was feeling undernourished or a bit like shaky or having a hard time, it wasn't like, Oh, let's go let's go cuddle. Let's like, touch or that kind of holding wasn't an option. So I almost don't expect it. I just think that's not really in the cards.

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. [00:14:00] And it brings it back. It really grounds it in like a real tangible experience that we can all relate to. And certainly I find it as a wonderful expansion of my toolkit, right? When I'm dealing with relationships and in my own relationship with my wife, being able to change the conversation around a reaction that I had is phenomenal.

And it's, it really has been. Paying dividends. And just to bring it back to just to give everyone an overview in case people haven't heard of this before. Can you elaborate on like the idea of the self and then like the, the exile and manager and firefighter personas that kind of exist in everyone.

Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So the internal family systems model is based upon this kind of way of simplifying what can be really like. A bit overwhelming, in terms of understanding the human psyche, you could say, right? So it's structured this way, right? We have a self our self is that which [00:15:00] is like the context of our whole existence.

It is present, it is inherently compassionate caring. Open, it has these traits and that's what we're, that's what we're looking to develop in IFS, like this self that can relate to all these different parts. You can think of it as like the ideal parent that is able to be really empathetic, creative, collaborative.

Centered so as to never get overly reactive. And then we have all of these other parts, or more constellations of parts and the others are exiles. Which are usually younger parts, and that's where you have the more of the shadowy parts that are, needy or really have a lot of emotion, a lot of shame, a lot of really intense feelings that weren't held or weren't integrated as a young [00:16:00] person.

So they had to be exiled and then as a result, you have these protectors. Managers that then deal with life on behalf, almost of these exiles, or just as a means of not letting them be at the mercy of the world and of others. So you have these managers, right? People have different kinds of managers.

Some are really like, aggressive. Some are just very intellectual and making sure they navigate the world. And this, capable way. They're great. There's nothing wrong with the, these are important. We haven't these managers and then there's firefighters, which are when those emotions of shame or maybe it's rage because that wasn't allowed when you were a kid when those start to arise, you have firefighters that come in and try and extinguish.

Those emotions like for me, it's like sometimes that food is the go to for that, right? For other people, it's alcohol for other people. It's actually overworking,

right?

Ryan: For other people. It's exercise. Anything can be used in this firefighting way [00:17:00] to quell. To quell the intensity of these emotions.

Thanks for breaking that down. I really relate so much to this idea that a firefighter can come in and say, Hey, the system's shaky right now. We know that this works as a comfort. Let's bring it in. I find it really powerful. And in fact, where I relate to it most is actually with smoking.

Nicotine. And as, as a kid, I also was very much a growing up as an Egyptian young man, there's a lot of expectations on myself for how to carry myself as a boy. With that, there's a lot of things being pushed down, right? A lot of the sensitivity, a lot of the having suppressed, any like anger or whatever.

And I found comfort in food and then when I got older, found comfort in cigarettes. And so it was interesting how. Interrelated and all this talk about food, I was gonna say, I would, I think we should take a trip up to Ashland and I just want to try some of this. There's a deep sauteing.

Ryan: Oh, yeah, I'd love that.

That's my deepest joy is to [00:18:00] feed the people.

That's actually a perfect segue because I know that there's nothing better in. Understanding this than to actually see it in practice. And I'm happy to tell you, Paul, that you walked straight into my trap.

And now that we've started exploring a little bit and that you feel inspired, I was actually wondering if Ryan, maybe you'd be willing to help Paul explore that and help the audience understand. A little bit more about the process and about the idea of maybe, trying to see if he can be friend.

Some of these parts. Hold on 1 second. That's sounds like a great idea. I'm very creative and I appreciate the the further turning of the tables, but I don't think your audience really cares to hear the inner conflicts of your coproducer psyche. I I'm willing to bet that's what they're here for.

What do you think, Ryan? I think this is this is good to do on air.

Ryan: I'm thinking in the moment [00:19:00] that actually this is up to you, Paul, of course to take a moment because like this is your, this is taking something that's private, kind of public, honestly, and what you need to do to keep it.

With within what you feel comfortable with. Yeah.

I'm going to do what any good assistant producer would do. And I'm going to just take one for the team.

Ryan: And at any point where you're opening up territory, the cool thing about IFS is that you can also just you can do a lot of work on the inside here, that you don't have to, you don't have to share anything of what's happening on the inside that you don't feel.

You can be your own arbiter of what actually comes out. You can do a lot of work on the inside as we explore here.

I'm a big believer in IFS. It is a practice that's helped me so much in my life. And yeah, I'd be honored to Be part of a demonstration for the Gumpcast audience on how this thing works.[00:20:00]

Ryan: Okay, great. And disclaimer, this is not therapy. This is just a educational exploration, a a little mini little coaching session. Cause IFS is also, it's like a, it's a coaching facilitating model for just looking at building awareness, building self understanding. So we'll look at it through that lens.

All right. So I'm just going to start by reflecting back to you what I hear is the beginnings of which I, of what I hear is happening inside. Like that, that you grew up in a Kinda a cultural familial context where there's kind of whole aspects of your emotional life that weren't safe, that weren't welcome.

Yeah. And so you've got some parts of you that hold like different emotions, right? Anger and what sat the different forms of need. I imagine. Yeah. And as that unfolded, like you, you developed these other parts of you that, that [00:21:00] came in to really help those parts feel better or feel safe either through food or through cigarettes over time.

Yeah. And even to bring things even more current after a 10 year gap of, not having smoked at all finding myself in the Dabbling a little bit and feeling some of those the poles of like nicotine addiction. Definitely there is a current thread happening that could connect back to that.

Ryan: Great. Just because that is the current and therefore more palpable or, visceral. Tom, describe that for me as you see it right now. How that all plays out inside of you, if you were to break it down in parts language. Yeah.

There's a part of me that is really health conscious, that has a very clear idea of what I need to be eating, what I need to be drinking, how much I need to be sleeping.

This is the health coach that lives in here. There's another [00:22:00] part of me that is, loves the pleasures of life and loves feeling good. And, This part is often at bay because in life I have a lot of responsibilities and a lot of things I'm involved in. Often times this part doesn't really get a chance to express itself as often as it would like.

And often times when it does, like once it has the spotlight for a little bit, it likes to take over the show, take over the stage. So often times When I do get a break, this firefighter is okay, we need to do like X, Y, and Z. We need to, order some Chinese food, have a couple of beers and yeah, maybe roll a couple of cigarettes as well to round out this very enjoyable experience.

So what happens in that place is a few things. One, a part of me feels really guilty, because it's man, we just conquered nicotine addiction, we were free for about ten years, and here we are again. So [00:23:00] there's a really like guilty part that's like hanging out. There's another part that's just you know what, fuck yeah, this is Like we've earned this, we've earned this, we've we work hard.

This is something that, this is our little break that we get to have. And then the health coach is okay, I get all this, but long term this is not sustainable because the health coach knows how much my system enjoys nicotine and knows that if left unchecked, at one point I was a pack a day smoker.

And so there's this sort of underlying concern that this health coach has of. That's becoming that again.

Ryan: Great. Thanks, Paul. Yeah, that's a great map. Just take a pause there and I'll just reflect back to you. Because, and for the listeners, and this is valuable in and of itself to simply actually name this map.

And take and notice, get a little bit of separation from all the different parts. So I'll just I'll reflect [00:24:00] them back to you. So it sounds like you've got a part that really just loves the pleasures of life. And part of, kind of part of that part is, or linked to that part is a, Is this one that wants to provide you that provide the pleasures?

Like he's a supplier. He's okay, we're going to order Chinese food and we're going to get, roll, roll, roll up the cigarettes. Just and creates this experience of pleasure

and linked with that. Is this part that's like holding the like truth that like, Hey, we've earned this. We've been working hard. Like we've, we're not just sitting around like smoking. All day, like we're working hard, we're doing life, moving forward. We deserve a celebratory or a pleasurable experience.

All around that, there sounds like a hovering part that's just holding the guilt of it all. Of yeah.

And the deeper I go there, I realize that this part that's the guilt, it's more of a [00:25:00] protector, manager, parental type voice. Yeah. Sure. Like a lot of absolutes in its warnings. If you don't do X, then Y will happen.

If you don't stop right now, the, think about all the tragic outcomes of being a heavy smoker. All of those will happen to me, so there's that guilt and it's a guilt and fear like at the same time,

Ryan: that's a common, I'm sure the listeners can really relate. That's very common, especially those that would actually listen to something like this that want to improve themselves or want to discover themselves.

It's very common to have a part that is that kind of guilt and fear inducing to try and change your behavior. Yeah. Towards the ideal trajectory as, as far as it's concerned. Yeah. So at this moment, now we're at the, at this interesting choice point. No we actually only [00:26:00] have.

5 or so minutes here.

But just a name and we could maybe spend a few minutes, but we're not going to go obviously the full, any forward. And this isn't really a session. We're just doing giving people a little bit of taste of what this looks like to develop a relationship with.

One's parts. So here you are right with, you're noticing them all and where they live in your body. Now, here you get to decide, like, where you bring your attention, your curiosity to which of these parts do you want to get to know better like what your intuition is.

Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm really interested in getting to know the part of me that feels like it needs to feel something in a very specific way in order to feel quote unquote, okay, and I really remember this when I was a heavy smoker, what I was going for at the time was just the feeling of okay, being okay, like things are okay.

And over the years I've developed a lot of great [00:27:00] practices to get me into even a deeper place of being okay. So I understand what it feels like to feel really grounded and centered, connected with myself and the spirit and all that stuff. So it's interesting how this part of me that is really in the business of, just, reminding ourselves that, this is okay.

Things are okay. Is somehow forgetting. The like the deeper place that we can go and I say we I mean like me and all the parts in there And so I'll be curious to get to know this part a little bit more to understand I want to understand what it's about and so maybe we could find a healthier way to address what it's looking for

Ryan: Great. So let's just take a you can, you you can take this with you right in your own meditation because you're at that place in terms of your own, just ability to converse with these parts, but just to [00:28:00] walk it down the road a little bit further, just take a moment with it really, let's just slow down enough so that you can really bring all of your curiosity and your.

Your presence to this part, just so you can really see what it really wants to show you, or it's already telling it sounds like it's already a fair amount now. Yeah. What else does it want to show you about what it wants for you or other parts of you?

I'm more curious to know, like, why, what is nicotine doing for you that okay. That we know is solved in other ways. What's that about? Sure.

Ryan: Just pause a moment just to check in right now. Like, how do you feel towards this?

Understanding some frustration a little bit.

Ryan: Yeah,

there's a part of me. That's a little frustrated,

Ryan: but I'm wondering if it's not [00:29:00] coming in with the why.

Yeah.

Ryan: Why do

I think that's actually, yeah, I was going to say that now that I can separate, curiosity from judgment, the part that's frustrated is that manager parental or, That's from my right shoulder to the left shoulder, just like across the way saying why I don't get it.

But from, from myself, I'm more compassionate. You must really feel like you need this.

Ryan: While we're there, we do have just another minute here. But while we're there, just. See if you can actually clearly ask that part of you that acknowledge the frustration that part has of this other part, right?

And see if it won't give you a little space for now so that you can actually really get to know this part.

Yeah, I'm telling that manager part. Hey. I'm with you, I appreciate everything you've done and continue to do [00:30:00] to keep this whole system in line and do cool shit in this world, but right now I would like to spend some time with this part of me that I know you're frustrated with just so we can understand it more and maybe hopefully get to An outcome that we can all feel good about.

How's it responding to that proposal? Feeling an eye roll, but also a a reluctant, yes.

Ryan: Thank it for that. Thank it for its willingness.

Great. And now the last thing we'll do is just to see what it's like now, when you bring your. With it with it giving you some space what is it like to now bring your full curiosity and compassion to this other part?

Speaking of shadow, I think this part of me is used to living in the shadow, not used to having this much attention to it.

So I'm trying to listen for more information. There is a willingness and a [00:31:00] hesitancy almost like when you, when someone is, just being in the light after a lot of time in the darkness is some eye adjustment and getting used to that exposure. I think before we could even get to conversation, there's a, there's just an adjustment.

We need to, this part of me needs to be used to not being just in the shadow, but also just really more integrated.

Ryan: Yeah. That makes sense to you. Yeah, great. We'll just close with it by just, being clear about an intention that you want to stay have with it around coming back to it some other points.

So it doesn't just feel now left as we transition.

I have an intention now to spend time with this part of me to give it space and a voice. And to really work with other parts to ask for cooperation as we spend some time in the coming days and weeks, just having more of an intimate connection with a part that I've [00:32:00] relegated to the shadows for a while.

Ryan: Or some other part of you has relegated really? Yeah. Oh yeah.

Yes.

Ryan: You know that it's.

That's an important distinction because it's. We often say I as if we're talking about the self capital S, but really it's, we understand the self to be curious and open and it's these other parts of us that do the shadowing or, exile us into the shadow.

Yeah.

Ryan: They're internalized oppressors. Yeah. For good reason. So much there, hard not to just continue to explore with you. Really. Thank you for that, Paul. And yeah, that was a nice little, a little dip.

Yeah, Paul, thank you for wow really bringing vulnerability to a, to another level here on the show.

And it was really interesting to actually, do a session like this so that we bring some. Being an experiential angle to, to all of [00:33:00] this. Cause sometimes it's hard to just talk about it or it doesn't make sense. And I hope you enjoyed my gift to you. I have many others coming your way.

Ryan, I feel like it was, it's yeah, we could easily spend three more hours Delving into Paul's psyche and talking about your work, but thank you so much for your time and your presence and and the work that you do in general in the world, I think it's really important work and it is certainly inspired us to do this show inspired me to know that there are enough stories out there to, that are worth writing a book about.

So I just really want to thank you. And I I hope you're back with us and And we can delve more into that stuff and into your stories. And like Paul said, taste some of that Chinese cuisine that we just talked about today.

Ryan: Appreciate you both. I really appreciate your friendship and being able to just see and experience what you guys are up to in terms of just really supporting in a playful way.

The, what are we going to call it? The [00:34:00] growth and the discovery of of all the people out there. All of our fellow humans.

Really appreciate your work, Ryan. Really glad to have you with us today.

Ryan: Pleasure's all mine. Pleasure's all ours. Yeah.

Let's be real.

Ryan: Let's so much, man.

All right. Take care of you both.

All right. So that happened. So that happened. Yeah, no, I had no idea what I was going to bring to the table. Yeah. Up until the very last moment. And it wasn't until I started. Responding to Ryan's story did all click, but that felt surprisingly good I've only let very few people know that I've been like struggling again with this whole nicotine thing It's fun that I went from like very few people even in my intimate circle To just here you go world, here it is.[00:35:00]

All right, so now we're two weeks later, and I'm very curious to know how that experience with An IFS session was for you and the way you're dealing with nicotine and smoking. Would you believe it's been so much easier since then? Yeah. I'm just as surprised as you are. The intense cravings have gone down so much.

Wow. As I reflected on that, it makes sense, if I look back at, 10 years ago, when I quit the first time I was a pack a day smoker, my strategy was to use shame to really like stuff down that voice stuff it down the part of me that wants to smoke, doesn't get a say in the conversation and eventually it worked.

I was able to stop smoking, but whenever that voice would come back, crave a cigarette, my strategy was to shut it away until I eventually forgot about it. So here I am 10 years later, I have a [00:36:00] cigarette. And suddenly these cravings come back and have no idea what to do because those strategies of shaming are not part of my tool set right now.

So here's this thing that is like wanting to smoke. What do I do with it? And so what IFS did for me was create a way to befriend that part of me, to befriend it in a way that we can have a conversation with the other parts who may not be into smoking. And suddenly the whole the tension in that conversation has gone down considerably.

So you befriended the part of you that is a smoker. Yes. That wants to, that craves the cigarettes, which is a radically different notion than how we're used to dealing with addiction or anything like that. Oh, totally. We're taught to suppress those voices until they go away as if they're, as if they're not even part of us or they're a part of us, they need to be like excised or cut off, but we know we can't really cut any part of ourselves off.

They're with us. So what do we do? And IFS is a great way to, it's a great answer to that question. What do we do with all these? [00:37:00] All these parts. Sounds like it relieved a lot of the friction in the situation, right? A hundred percent. And the thing with addiction is there's a lot of shame involved with addiction.

And one of the easiest ways, and one of the most natural ways that people deal with shame is to hide it. And IFS creates. a system where that doesn't have to happen. And for me, that was extremely relieving and extremely helpful. And those cravings are, I have a better way to deal with this right now. And it's been great.

That's really great to hear. It gives me a lot of hope for sure. And I hope it did for the listeners too. And I'm glad you mentioned the relationship between shame and addiction since today's session was mostly about addiction. But the next chapter in the book tackles shame, specifically shame that our parents might have for us as children.

Because in the story, Muscat just went on this great [00:38:00] revenge story. And now the school teachers are running after him, trying to find him and they're reporting his behavior to his parents. And so the next chapter is all about his parents dealing with the shame of knowing that their son might have done something that they Would not fathom him ever doing.

And so that's what we're gonna be exploring in episode eight of the gum cast. You ready for that? That's very bold, my friend. Shame is shame is a big one. It's one of those topics that no one wants to touch. No. And I hope we can explore that and maybe if FS is a great tool for us also.

Bring in a lot of these parts that are activated with shame, which is a huge one. I'm excited for that journey, my friend. I think the gum cast is ready to take on this topic. I think so too. Yeah. We've been building up towards it for sure. All right, everyone. I hope you enjoyed this. I hope you got something back.

Paul, I thank you, not just for being an awesome co host, but also for sharing your own stories. I think you gave us a lot to [00:39:00] reflect on. And thanks for bringing the, something as tender as addiction to to the audience. Yeah, thanks for creating space for me to share all this with you and everyone else.

And there is a lot more of that to come. We hope you all can join us for the next episode of the Gumpcast, where we're going to be talking about this really difficult topic of shame. We'll see you next time.